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周伟驰《河流》(Jan Siesling翻译)

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田海燕 发表于 2015-11-25 14:37:39 | 显示全部楼层 |阅读模式
本帖最后由 张杰 于 2015-11-25 22:59 编辑

周伟驰诗一首:《河流》
Zhou Wei Chi (China): 《The River》

杨 劳伦斯 西思翎 (美国)译
Translation by Jan Laurens Siesling (USA)



诗人简介:(Zhou Wei Chi)

  周伟驰,1969年生于湖南,1983年搬到广东,先后在广州中山大学和北京大学学习,于1998年获哲学博士学位。曾至加拿大Regent College和Yale University学习各一年。现在中国社会科学院世界宗教研究所工作。少年时代开始写诗,曾任中山大学诗社社长。出版有诗集《避雷针让闪电从身上经过》(南京大学出版社,2013)、《蜃景》(世界知识出版社,2008),诗论集《小回答》(北京大学出版社,2014)和《旅人的良夜》(浙江大学,2008),译诗集《第二空间》(Second Space by Czeslaw Milosz)(花城出版社,2015)、《沃伦诗选》、《梅利尔诗选》和《英美十人诗选》。


Poet’s profile:

  Zhou Wei Chi, born in 1969 in Hunan, moved in 1983 to Guangdong. He studied at the Sun Yat-sen University (Zhongshan University) and later at Beijing University to obtain his degree in 1998 as doctor of philosophy. In Canada he studied a year at Regent College and in the USA another year at Yale University. He is currently employed by the Institute of World Religions at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences. Zhou began writing poetry in his teenage years and served as President of the poetry society when he was at Zhongshan University. He published several collections of poetry: The lightning rod lets the lightning pass through its body (Nanjing University Press, 2013), Fata Morgana (World Knowledge Publishing House, 2008), Traveler’s Good Night (Zhejiang University Press, 2008), and essays on poetry Short Answer (Beijing University Press, 2014). He translated Second Space by the poet Czeslaw Milosz (Huacheng Publishing House, 2015), Selected Poems by Robert Penn Warren, Selected Poems by James Merrill, as well as Selected Poems by Ten British and American Poets.



Jan Siesling  简介:

  杨 劳伦斯 西思翎(Jan Laurens Siesling) 是艺术史学者和著有小说和诗歌的作家。他的小说常处理艺术,他的艺术的书是处理诗意灵感。他是一个语言的人,在他的自由时间他喜欢翻译,从一种喜爱的语言到另一种。中文很可能变成他的将来的挑战。他生于荷兰,从阿姆斯特丹自由大学取得博士学位。他在法国生活很多年,他的书大多是用法语写的。现在他半年在欧洲,半年在美国。他最近的书“艺术是更多”  (Art is More),是一个非传统的历代的西方艺术史。 这本书的纸质版在       www.artismore.org  和电子版在 www.amazon.com 可找到。


Biographical Note

  Jan Laurens Siesling is an art historian and a writer of fiction and poetry.  His novels often deal with art and his books on art deal with the poetry behind artistic inspiration. He is a man of languages and in his free time he likes to do translations from one beloved language into another. Chinese is likely to become his future challenge. He was born in the Netherlands and he obtained his degrees from the Free University of Amsterdam. He lived in France for many years and most of his books were written in French. Now he spends half of the year in Europe, the other half in America. His most recent book, Art is More, is an unconventional history of Western art through the ages. It is available as a hard copy www.artismore.org or as an e-book on www.amazon.com




Zhou Wei Chi:《The River》

There should be a river in your life, I often think, floating before your eyes.
A boat is not even necessary, from the pier you can see comb grass at the bottom of the water.
Absentmindedly curling, it sometimes leaves a lake, like an organ spat by an escaping fish.
Lovely River, you don't have to sing, as long as you shine before my eyes.

I roamed up North in open plains, a thousand miles of trees, a thousand miles of wheat, but no river.
Dark horse eyes, dark donkey eyes, under the big-leaf poplars, under the arid stars at dusk.
Stroking the animal’s fur I felt the lazy flow of the blood, too thick, almost bitter and adust.
Dust forms soil, and soil forms bricks, and bricks form cities, but no waves in human eyes.

Then I returned home in spring, canola violently blooming, lining tiny creeks, bordering small ponds.
And I saw you again, rising, streaming, rocking, moaning, meandering, straight again, opening,
Clear you, filthy you, sky-blue you, greasy you, delicious you, stinking you,
Shimmering light, at the curve of the cliff, at the gentle slope, beside the furrow freshly plowed.

Looking down from a steep mountain ridge by a timorous car window, I saw you, slender and tender,
I saw you, I spiraled down, until my hand could almost touch you and drag you back with me.
Gone far I have, but near the falls the watermill still sighs, gone far, but the waterwheel still turns,
Gone far, but seen from the sun, between the children playing at the riverbank today and once me,
               [what’s the difference?

Blessed is he, who has a small river at his childhood’s door, in wind and rain under the clouds,
           [flowing for its own sake.
Snappers flap in spring, fishers spread their nets in fall, and white long-legged cranes in summer
                       [meditate upon its surface.
When you bend over serene deep waters and the wave hits your face, it is light flocking in from all sides,
                                      [making your heart ripple without leaving a trace.
Lovely River, deep soul River, ever chanting River, I ought to thank you, where you are there is life.


                      2002. 3. 15



附:

周伟驰:《河流》

我常常想,生活中应该有一条河,在眼前漂着。
不一定要有船,从石墩上,可以看见水底的梳子草。
它不经心地蜷曲着,有时留下一个湖,象鱼在逃生时吐出的一个器官。
可爱的河,你无需唱歌,只要在我眼前闪烁。

我走过北方的原野,一千里的树,一千里的麦地,但没有河。
幽暗的马眼睛,幽暗的驴眼睛,在大叶杨树下,在黄昏干燥星下。
抚摸着家畜的毛发我感到血在缓缓流动,带着浓度,几近干涩。
灰尘结成土,土结成砖,砖结成城市,而人的眼里没有波浪。

当我回到家乡,在春天,油菜花怒放,在小小溪旁,在小小水塘旁。
当我再次看到你,涨着,淌着,摇着,呻吟着,曲着,挺着,张开着,
清澈的你,龌龊的你,淡蓝的你,油腻的你,可口的你,恶臭的你,
闪着光,在那山崖的拐弯处,在那小土坡下,在那犁开着的新鲜的沟垅旁。

当我从险峻的山腰,从胆怯的车窗里向下望,我看见你,修长而柔软,
我看见你,我一层层回旋下山,直到几乎可把手伸向你,拉着你和我一同归去。
远去了,但那建在小瀑布边的水磨仍在响着,远去了,但水车仍在转着,
远去了,但在太阳的眼里,今天河边玩水的孩子和昔日的我有何区别?

有福的人,在你童年的门前有一条小河,风里、雨里、云朵下它自管自地流着。
春天鲷鱼拍打,秋天渔人撒网,夏天长腿的白鹤在水面上出神。
当你俯身流水幽深,打碎着自己的面庞,那是四面蜂涌的光,使你心漾动不留痕。
可爱的河,性灵的河,不息地哗哗响着的河,我要感谢你,有河水的地方才有生活。


                                                             2002.3.15






周伟驰 发表于 2015-11-25 22:50:16 | 显示全部楼层
田老师,今天仔细看了一下你们的翻译,并中英之间进行了比对,真是太好了。
周伟驰 发表于 2015-11-25 22:52:49 | 显示全部楼层
我刚写了个微信公号,准备周六发,现将主要内容贴在下面:

我的诗被译成外语的只有寥寥几首,全凭朋友们带来的运气。年初张杰兄在电话里说在联系翻译家田海燕教授,想翻译几个朋友的诗,包括我这首《河流》。今天(11月25日)他送来这首诗的英译,我一看,真是不错!译者西思翎(Jan Laurens Siesling)我不认识,据介绍是荷兰诗人、艺术家和学者,主要用法语写作,现在半年生活在欧洲,半年在美国。我比较了一下,感觉他对《河流》这首诗的理解和翻译,是相当到位的。象“性灵的河”英文很难找到对译,但他译为deep soul River,就正适宜。deep跟river本来配合,加上soul,形成一个词内隐喻。再如第三节第二、三行是长流水句,“当我再次看到你,涨着,淌着,摇着,呻吟着,曲着,挺着,张开着,/清澈的你,龌龊的你,淡蓝的你,油腻的你,恶臭的你”,英译处理得也很利索。

这首诗我自己比较满意的是第二节,译者也体会到了,译得最为顺遂。原第二节略有我自己的用语特色,如“在黄昏干燥星下”就非常压缩(形容星辰也如粉末干燥),译者很好地表达了这个意思:under the arid stars at dusk。这里dusk可能会令人联想到dust,跟arid stars相类似。这样的例子还有几个。我感到译者是一个用心做事、注重细节的人,我不知道他的年龄,如果还年轻,那应该会是一个很有前途的诗人翻译家。在当代中国文化版图中,诗歌是最有创造性的一个领域,很多优秀的诗人需要找到对等的译者。由于汉语的精微非母语者难以体味,汉诗外译如果由中外诗人合作进行,效果可能会更好——由懂英文的中国学者或诗人将诗口头讲解或初译出来,再由外国诗人将诗写成确有“英诗感觉”的诗,当然外国诗人懂中文更好,不懂也不妨,重要的是外语感觉。在此我要对西思翎、田海燕、张杰表示衷心的感谢!
周伟驰 发表于 2015-11-25 22:54:29 | 显示全部楼层
注意,原诗中有一个错别字,“龌龃”应为“龌龊”。如果可能请更正一下。
张杰 发表于 2015-11-25 23:01:16 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 张杰 于 2015-11-26 00:01 编辑


伟驰兄好:是的,这个英译文版本翻译的是不错。
从译文学习中,我受益匪浅。举一点,比如以前我不知道”鲷diāo鱼“别称就是加吉鱼、班加吉、加真鲷,刚才我查了下才知道,在柯林斯高阶英汉双解词典里“snapper"即是鲷鱼;红鳍笛鲷,以前我就以为”snapper“只是指甲鱼,现在才知道了。

抱歉!刚已把“龌龃”更正为“龌龊”。
握!
 楼主| 田海燕 发表于 2015-11-26 10:03:00 | 显示全部楼层
周伟驰 发表于 2015-11-25 22:50
田老师,今天仔细看了一下你们的翻译,并中英之间进行了比对,真是太好了。 ...

很高兴你喜欢这个英文版。我享受了作为中文和英文诗歌的读者参与翻译的过程,给译者谈我对诗的理解和印象。尽管不同的人对同一首诗的理解不尽相同,一首诗的精髓是在那里的,似乎Jan Siesling总能捕捉到它并用非常贴切的词句在英文的环境里把它诗意地再现出来。
 楼主| 田海燕 发表于 2015-11-26 10:05:05 | 显示全部楼层
周伟驰 发表于 2015-11-25 22:52
我刚写了个微信公号,准备周六发,现将主要内容贴在下面:

我的诗被译成外语的只有寥寥几首,全凭朋友们带 ...

Dear Zhou Wei Chi,
Thank you for your words in response to the English version of “The River”.  As a translator, one wishes to honor the poet, not to hurt him. And that is not as easy as it seems. You know this out of experience. From the start one must acknowledge that the translation will never equal the original in depth or beauty. This is even more true for poems (and poets!) from cultures as different as ours.  My case in particular is desperate, since I don’t speak and hardly read any Chinese.  Without Tian Haiyan I would be lost. By chance I believe in poetry. There is hope. Isn’t it a little miracle we can write and poetically understand each other? That you can say essential things and that I can pick them up? Poetry is the origin and the goal. So thank you for your confidence. And thanks to Zhang Jie for his match making and to Tian Haiyan for her sensitive language skills.
Besides, I appreciate that you believe I am young. Continue!
Jan
张杰 发表于 2015-11-26 14:04:34 | 显示全部楼层
田海燕 发表于 2015-11-26 10:05
Dear Zhou Wei Chi,
Thank you for your words in response to the English version of “The River”.  ...


田海燕教授和西思翎先生好:

  我的一点感言:的确如西思翎先生所言,诗歌是起源和目标,中国当代诗歌需要田海燕教授和西思翎先生这样的优秀翻译家参与进来,来共同传布一种来自当代中国的,诗歌的声音,这古老的国家正经历着嬗变式的巨变,当代中国诗歌无疑是一个特殊的含有至美、独立沉思和批判的反映体,经由你们辛苦的翻译工作,展现了诗歌超越时空的神奇。辛苦了!张杰
周伟驰 发表于 2015-11-27 11:07:32 | 显示全部楼层
田老师、Jan,
    非常高兴能看到你们的回音。中国翻译家诗人和外国诗人合作翻译中国当代诗歌,这也是最近很多诗人朋友们在谈论的,比如上月中旬我去安徽桃花潭参加一个诗会,会上去了刘文飞、谷羽、树才、高兴、赵振江等翻译家,大家谈到一个问题是,有些中国翻译家如许渊冲将中国诗译成了十九世纪的英语格律诗,对于今天的英语诗读者来说是缺乏语言感觉的(或现代感),因此,大家一致觉得应由中外翻译家诗人密切,甚至开一些工作坊来进行翻译,中国翻译家(或诗人)阐释和解释中国诗歌的细微、细节、文本中值得注意之处(比如一些汉语的联想、关连、典故、双关语),而英语诗人则力求在英语中找到相类似的(对应不一定等同)语言,使它成为一首“当代英诗”呈现。有时,我倒是觉得英语诗人不一定要对汉语原文有多么了解,“隔”一点反而会充满对原作的“想象”,就象庞德虽然只学过一点汉文,但是能够重新发明汉诗一样。这是因为,如果太了解,反而会被“同化”得太厉害,而丧失诗歌所需要的“陌生化”和“想象”,因此,找能够充分理解原汉诗的中文翻译家(或翻译家诗人,一般是中国人)和不甚懂中文的外语诗人,更能相得宜彰,发挥各自的长处。在我的阅读中,有些美国的西班牙语翻译家翻译出来的马查多、或希腊专家翻译出来的卡瓦菲斯,虽然准确,但是确实比不上诗人(如布莱)翻译的出彩。而布莱翻译的马查多,虽然精彩,但是个别地方会有一些错误。因此,最好的方式是懂原诗语言的研究者(研究者最好,因为他/她能充分理解诗中的微妙之处)和移入语诗人通力合作,这样才能译出完美的诗。有时,译出的诗在其母语中的光辉甚至能超过原诗,我怀疑戴望舒翻译的洛尔迦就是如此。
在中国古代的佛典翻译中,唐时就是有经场的,由懂梵文的经师将经典讲解出来,再由中文特别好的中国学者连缀成文,数人再三仔细润色修改,才成定稿。千锤百炼之下,这些翻译都以中文经典的形式流传下来,一千多年来人们都还在用它,可见精美翻译大益人世。
周伟驰 发表于 2015-11-27 11:11:36 | 显示全部楼层
刚才所说的指典翻译,鸠摩罗什就是一个很好的例子,他跟中国学者通力合作,译出的经典至今还广被使用。
张杰 发表于 2015-11-27 21:08:28 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 张杰 于 2015-11-27 21:18 编辑
周伟驰 发表于 2015-11-27 11:07
田老师、Jan,
    非常高兴能看到你们的回音。中国翻译家诗人和外国诗人合作翻译中国当代诗歌,这也是最近 ...


伟驰兄评得透彻,可见破解诗歌翻译的难度,维系在译者的文化素养和诗歌素养及对诗的辨识、见识和最后判断,同时也维系在译者的双语掌握度与合译者的双语掌握度,两厢都可互为补充、融合,起到对译文的查遗补缺,贴切对位母语的作用,这种精准、优美,吻合度高的翻译,都让诗歌翻译上升为严谨的智慧美学和严谨的学术。
 楼主| 田海燕 发表于 2015-11-28 06:22:39 | 显示全部楼层
周伟驰 发表于 2015-11-27 11:11
刚才所说的指典翻译,鸠摩罗什就是一个很好的例子,他跟中国学者通力合作,译出的经典至今还广被使用。
...

Zhou, Zhang, very interesting remarks. Let me add some thoughts.

I have often thought about the value of translation, especially poetry. Why do we need, for instance, new translations of Dante or Shakespeare every hundred years? The Inferno and Hamlet themselves stay fresh through the ages. Well, compare the translation to a photo: it makes a good copy of the object, however only of one side, it can’t catch the back or the sides, you can’t walk around it. You lose in dimension what you gain in communication. The object (the original) exists, freely, that is its mystery, it needs no justification; but the photo (the translator, the communicator) does need a justification to exist, it is usually beauty.  A photo of a horrible scene must be beautiful in photo-technical terms, in order to attract attention.  Paradoxically, translation needs beauty to convince, to seduce, more so than the original. That beauty is its vulnerable spot.

Just a few short points.  1) The structure of the Chinese language comes very naturally close to Western poetic sensibilities. You and I are closer now than we were in 1600. 2) It is absolutely necessary though to understand some Chinese, in order to catch of a poem its poetic dimension. I dare say the poetic experience changes completely and for the better. 3) When I translate you, I need to reach an English reading public with the help of some “beauty” of English (see above), no problem, but different in the original, so I definitely don’t want to abuse, I would lose you. Or rather lose your poem.  4) I wish to get close to the poem. My technique is double. I try to be extremely faithful to every word used, every expression and every turn of phrase and thought. I ask Haiyan to be very exact and strict (she is, believe me! It is teamwork.). After that I search, by concentrating on the content, for the poetic reason for being of all those elements. This reason exceeds the linguistic and cultural gap between you and me. It is our human link. My inspiration joins yours. Translation is possible. 5) One thing is not possible though. There is a graphic quality in Chinese writing that cannot be transferred to a Western language. Chinese poetry approaches painting, where English poetry approaches music. Chinese is therefore more resistant in time, English tends to the emotion of space. Let us rejoice, because now we have both.

PS  You can call me Jan, as my friends do. And I would be pleased if you’d take a look at my Art book.  Can you download it in China from www.amazon.com ?

Jan
JanSiesling 发表于 2015-11-28 09:41:22 | 显示全部楼层
周伟驰 发表于 2015-11-27 11:11
刚才所说的指典翻译,鸠摩罗什就是一个很好的例子,他跟中国学者通力合作,译出的经典至今还广被使用。
...

Zhou, Zhang, very interesting remarks. Let me add some thoughts.

I have often thought about the value of translation, especially poetry. Why do we need, for instance, new translations of Dante or Shakespeare every hundred years? The Inferno and Hamlet themselves stay fresh through the ages. Well, compare the translation to a photo: it makes a good copy of the object, however only of one side, it can’t catch the back or the sides, you can’t walk around it. You lose in dimension what you gain in communication. The object (the original) exists, freely, that is its mystery, it needs no justification; but the photo (the translator, the communicator) does need a justification to exist, it is usually beauty.  A photo of a horrible scene must be beautiful in photo-technical terms, in order to attract attention.  Paradoxically, translation needs beauty to convince, to seduce, more so than the original. That beauty is its vulnerable spot.

Just a few short points.  1) The structure of the Chinese language comes very naturally close to Western poetic sensibilities. You and I are closer now than we were in 1600. 2) It is absolutely necessary though to understand some Chinese, in order to catch of a poem its poetic dimension. I dare say the poetic experience changes completely and for the better. 3) When I translate you, I need to reach an English reading public with the help of some “beauty” of English (see above), no problem, but different in the original, so I definitely don’t want to abuse, I would lose you. Or rather lose your poem.  4) I wish to get close to the poem. My technique is double. I try to be extremely faithful to every word used, every expression and every turn of phrase and thought. I ask Haiyan to be very exact and strict (she is, believe me! It is teamwork.). After that I search, by concentrating on the content, for the poetic reason for being of all those elements. This reason exceeds the linguistic and cultural gap between you and me. It is our human link. My inspiration joins yours. Translation is possible. 5) One thing is not possible though. There is a graphic quality in Chinese writing that cannot be transferred to a Western language. Chinese poetry approaches painting, where English poetry approaches music. Chinese is therefore more resistant in time, English tends to the emotion of space. Let us rejoice, because now we have both.

PS  You can call me Jan, as my friends do. And I would be pleased if you’d take a look at my Art book.  Can you download it in China from www.amazon.com ?

Jan
张杰 发表于 2015-11-28 10:45:50 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 张杰 于 2015-11-28 10:53 编辑
田海燕 发表于 2015-11-28 06:22
Zhou, Zhang, very interesting remarks. Let me add some thoughts.

I have often thought about the v ...



的确如Jan兄所言:“为什么我们需要每百年的新译本的莎士比亚?地狱和哈姆雷特自己保持新鲜千古。好吧,把翻译与照片对比,它是一个很好的复制对象,但是照片只有一个侧面,它不能捕捉到背面或两侧,你不能走动在它(周围)。你失去了在沟通中获得的维度。”Jan兄很自信,这点很好,当然他是有依凭的,因为他商榷田老师时的“非常精确和严格”,这是一个翻译保证,也是一个框准,同时也是一种补充和调校,甚至是修正,然后再反馈给对方,这里的迂回求证过程显然有些复杂,但又很有必要,而且非此不可,所以好的翻译真的是艰辛的劳作,在此,作为小桥的我,向Jan兄、田老师和优秀的诗作者们致敬!
刚才我去了http://www.artismore.org/ ,输入关键字“Art is More”,看到了Jan兄的英姿,果敢坚毅,气概非凡。试着点击Buy ebook,发现是死链接,才觉自己还未注册所致,好的,回头我一定拜读Jan兄的“Art is More”,于是想这个回帖就附上下面页面Jan兄小照一张,以飨读者吧,愿Jan兄理解 Jan Laurens Siesling.JPG

ART IS MORE

why didn’t we think of this before?

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L'ART AUTREMENT

This book turns traditional art history inside out. Not styles or forms or movements or artists or art theories are its point of departure, but the reason for being of art in civilization. Since the very beginnings of society art has raised and responded to the existential questions of the human kind. The history of the arts is the history of those questions and from that angle art should be presented: here it is. When reading this book, unfolding like a novel, we think yes, of course, no doubt, why didn’t we think of this before? And we agree that art is not a hobby or a profession or an entertainment; but the very heartbeat of the human race.


This art book carries no pictures. Lists of “major works” and a generous index have been added however to facilitate the consultation of resources on the internet.


Jan Laurens Siesling is a writer and art historian. Born and educated in the Netherlands, he has lived in several countries and traveled in many. As an independent intellectual he has lectured on art in schools and museums and taught at universities in Europe and the US. His books are written in Dutch, French and English.
砂议 发表于 2015-12-7 10:10:00 | 显示全部楼层
  记者:20世纪的美国诗歌史上,曾经出现了几次中国古典诗翻译的热潮,而且对美国诗歌的现代化有很大的影响。那么,当代中国诗人的诗集在国外翻译出版的情况怎样?国外读者对中国现代诗怎么看?

  奚密:国内诗人已经有不少在欧美翻译出版诗集,例如:黄翔、食指、多多、杨炼、翟永明、欧阳江河、张枣、西川等。我自己也翻译过一些。我个人认为最理想的翻译经验是和友人合作。他既是美国诗人,又是一流的文学编辑; 虽然他不懂中文,但是能够揣摩原诗的精神,同时加强译诗的音乐性和节奏。
  一般来说,美国诗人和大学创作班的学生对中国新诗都有些好奇心和兴趣,他们想了解同代人的经验,想知道世界其他地方的诗人们在做什么,关心的问题是什么。所以国际诗歌节是很有意义的活动。诗人们有机会交流,而且会发现世界上每个角落都有人在写好诗。我自己就常发现,即使那些不太受人注目的小国家也有非常优秀的诗人,值得我们介绍。

摘自《奚密:诗歌最终只对自己负责》
2013年12月06日10:23  来源:文学报 何晶

  汉诗研究者奚密,台湾大学外文系毕业后至美国加州大学攻读文学硕士和博士学位,现任教于加州大学的戴维斯分校,以现当代汉语诗歌及东西方比较诗学为主要研究对象。主要论著包括:《现代汉诗:1917年以来的理论与实践》《现代诗文录》《从边缘出发:现代汉诗的另类传统》。近年来,她在报章上写作诗歌专栏,以诗歌为主题,从评论、欣赏、历史描述等多种角度思考诗与人类生活的丰富关联,将高雅的诗歌谈得散漫有趣,以贴近的生活化方式,引导人们对于诗歌的关注。
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